This article is from: CounterParty TV

Translation｜Odaily Planet Daily (@OdailyChina); Translator｜Ethan (@ethanzhang_web3)

Editor's Note: Three hours before the historic crash in the crypto market on the morning of October 11, CZ (Zhao Changpeng) appeared on the podcast CounterParty TV hosted by crypto community streamer Threadguy.

At this moment, the market was just one step away from the "bloodbath moment," with BTC still above $120,000, and the sentiment still immersed in the warmth of new highs. Just a few hours later, 1.6 million people were liquidated, with a liquidation scale reaching $19.3 billion, setting a new historical record; altcoins plummeted across the board, with 80% and 90% drops appearing densely in the candlestick charts. _ (See: “The Night of October 11: The Crypto Market Plummets Instantly, $20 Billion Vanishes” )_

“1011”, following “312” and “519”, has become another timestamp that must be recorded in crypto history. In the short hours before all this happened, CZ was discussing Meme, the BNB ecosystem, Perp DEX, industry splits, and builder beliefs during the live broadcast.

Below is the original interview content, translated by Odaily Planet Daily, with some content omitted for smoother reading.

• Host: That's great, I'm really grateful you could come. It feels like your activity on Twitter is at an all-time high_ lately, like you're firing on all cylinders._

CZ: Actually, I was more active earlier, especially during the years I was running Binance full-time. But indeed, this week has had a lot of information, so I've been posting more. I often fly around now, and usually don’t have that much time to post, but things have been more concentrated these days.

• Host: You just got out of prison not long ago, and returning to Twitter, it can be said you’re firing on all cylinders. You previously quoted that Forbes article about your net worth, and although you said the numbers were exaggerated, objectively speaking, you are one of the most influential people in this industry. So at this stage, what are your goals? What drives you to do what you’re doing now?

CZ: I’ve never been particularly driven by money. Binance grew too fast, so fast that I didn’t experience the normal process of wealth accumulation that ordinary people go through, step by step making money and learning to enjoy wealth. In the first few years, we were always putting out fires, and then we were dealing with U.S. regulations, which was very stressful.

I come from an ordinary background and have never been accustomed to a luxurious lifestyle, but I think that’s fine; I just need a functional life. As long as my clothes are wearable and my chair is usable, I’m good. I wear a Garmin sports watch, which costs $300, and that’s enough. I don’t buy luxury cars, watches, or yachts, and I don’t have that wealth path of “earn ten million to buy a car, earn a hundred million to buy a house, earn two hundred million to buy a boat.” I was pushed directly from “zero” to the cover of Forbes. But I didn’t suddenly have tens of billions of dollars in my wallet, and I didn’t cash out a lot, so my perception of wealth is different from what ordinary people imagine.

So, I don’t feel the need to “prove myself again,” nor am I obsessed with the label of “multiple entrepreneurial successes.” I’ve done enough with Binance; I haven’t let down investors or users. I owe it to BNB holders, our team members, and platform users.

I’ve taken on the responsibilities I should bear, including legal ones, and I’ve faced them head-on. My time in prison actually allowed me to see many things more clearly. You become very aware that—first, health is the most important; second, connections between people are the most important. You might miss food and a bed, but those are secondary.

Before I went to prison, I had already made it clear that I would not return to manage the Binance exchange; I’m just a shareholder. I asked myself: what do I want to do in the future, what can keep me excited? The answer I came up with is: helping others.

I believe humans are biologically wired to feel a strong sense of satisfaction from “helping others” as long as they can survive. I no longer need to worry about survival, so my question becomes: how can I maximize my help to others?

I no longer care about “reputation” because it has already been hit by judicial processes, and it’s no longer absolutely pure for me. But I still care deeply about “credibility”—I have never harmed users, and that is my bottom line.

Power? I have already left the operational layer of the Binance trading system. Money? I can’t spend it all, and I have no material pursuits. So what I care about now is—when I’m old and look back, did I do my best to help others, did I do something truly valuable?

Education is one answer—if we can build a globally open and scalable digital education platform, that would be a super leverage. After getting out of prison, I took a few months off, then returned, focusing my energy on the BNB Chain ecosystem and Binance Labs (now we are rebooting the brand to completely separate it from centralized exchanges) to help more entrepreneurs succeed.

You asked if I feel a sense of responsibility to “control the fate of the industry”? I don’t have that grand narrative. I don’t think any one person can be solely responsible for the entire industry. The crypto industry will have ups and downs, and there will be winters, but each bottom will be higher than the last. I’m not a leader; I’m just a participant who is still contributing.

• _Host: I’m not trying to put the future of the entire industry on your shoulders, but I am curious. Before we get into more specific topics like Meme, Perp, and the technical ecosystem, I want to ask a more macro question first. The current state of Crypto Twitter, especially among those deeply involved in on-chain trading culture, seems a bit strange. On one hand, Bitcoin has just hit a new high, and even if it pulls back a few percentage points today, it should still be in a bull market. But when you open the timeline, the sentiment is chaotic like a bear market. However, from a macro perspective, the industry has actually made historic breakthroughs. The Trump administration has openly embraced crypto, BTC, SOL, and ETH all have ETFs, and most traditional financial institutions globally have started using stablecoins; crypto has indeed penetrated the mainstream structure of the world. _Logically, this should be a “victory moment.”_ But in the on-chain world, especially in the retail-dominated segment, there was a Meme craze, but now there isn’t that concentrated fervor of consensus, and everyone is asking—“What should we believe in next? Where is the North Star on-chain?”. What do you think about this issue? What is your optimistic expectation for the on-chain future?_

CZ: I understand the “chaotic” state you’re describing, but I don’t see it as a bad thing. On the contrary, it usually means the industry is getting bigger.

Back in 2013 and 2014, we didn’t even call this industry the “crypto industry”; at that time, there was only Bitcoin, and we called it the “Bitcoin industry.” In 2017, Ethereum emerged, and ERC-20 brought the ICO wave, leading to a surge in projects, marking the first explosion of the industry. In 2021, DeFi and NFTs appeared, transitioning from peak to normalization, but they didn’t disappear.

The current round you mentioned—ETFs, Meme, stablecoins, RWA… these things coexisting indicate that the industry’s dimensions are expanding, and the ecosystem is becoming increasingly layered, with different groups starting to have different entry points of belief—this shows that the volume is large enough.

Indeed, this has also led to more obvious differentiation—old OGs’ libertarian camp, traditional finance’s institutional faction, new on-chain Meme players, value-oriented builders, Bitcoin Maxis, each group has its own language system. This is inevitable; if Web 3 is a truly decentralized ecosystem, it should have conflicts, divergences, and competition, while also having collaboration.

I’m personally accustomed to chaotic states. I’m not someone who seeks order; I like open environments, the unknown, and places with various different voices. So I believe that the current “sense of division” in the industry is actually a sign of maturity—it indicates that we are no longer a single narrative but have entered an ecological structure.

You asked what the North Star is? I think the North Star is no longer a specific asset or single narrative, but rather—more people continuously entering, a larger ecosystem accommodating multiple narratives, while still building. That in itself is the direction.

• Host: The current situation is quite counterintuitive; Bitcoin just hit a new high, and it only dropped 1%, yet the entire Twitter timeline feels like it’s collapsing, with everyone shouting “it’s over.” This might be the norm in the crypto world in 2025. Speaking of Bitcoin, you appeared on Ferox’s podcast about five months ago (also a shoutout to him, that episode was well done), and you provided a range of Bitcoin price expectations: $500,000 to $1 million. What do you think now? Do you still maintain that judgment?

CZ: I still think that’s a reasonable range. But first, I want to emphasize that I will be very cautious about price predictions—no one really knows where the price will go. All the people I know who truly understand the industry would not be certain that the price will reach a specific point; predictions are just opinions, not definitive conclusions.

If we look at historical cycles, Bitcoin has a cycle every four years, and most peaks occur between October and December after the halving. Considering the current market situation, Bitcoin is already very close to its historical high, and this 1% to 2% fluctuation, in the eyes of us old players who have experienced a 50% drop one day and a 50% rise the next, is really “child’s play,” and can even be described as “stablecoin-like volatility.”

So, whether for Bitcoin or the entire crypto market, I still maintain strong optimism.

• Host: I’ve noticed a change. Previously, you were relatively reserved about Meme coins in 2024; you mentioned on several occasions that you were not a supporter of Meme coins, which sparked quite a discussion at the time. But recently, you seem to be noticeably more positive about Meme-related content, even showing a certain excitement. What has changed in between? Why does your attitude towards Meme coins seem different now?

CZ: I want to clarify first, I am not “against Meme coins.” I have never been part of the opposition; I just said I personally wasn’t that enthusiastic about them. I’m not a Meme coin issuer, and that’s a fact, just like I’m not an NFT player.

I have never bought an NFT, and I have very few altcoins. While I support projects across the industry, the only things I truly hold are Bitcoin and BNB, basically just those. I haven’t invested heavily in project tokens on other chains, but I support the development of those ecosystems. The funds from the Binance system have also supported many projects on different chains, and I maintain close communication with many chain developers.

The reason I don’t buy art, NFTs, music, or collect those things is not because I oppose them, but because—I’m just not that type of person. I am a technology-functional thinker; I like tools that can be used directly and do not pursue collectible attributes. I also don’t wear luxury watches; I use an electronic watch that tells time and tracks my workouts. I play basketball, I run, and that’s my lifestyle. So it’s not that I reject those things; it’s just that I’m not part of that culture.

However, if users in the ecosystem like it, and if something has been validated and has a market on other chains, I’m certainly willing to support it. I receive messages from dozens of project founders every day—some are doing Launchpads, some are working on stablecoins, and some are creating new Meme platforms. I look at the team, and if I think the team is reliable, I will help.

So I have never been anti-Meme; it’s just that previously, there wasn’t a structured ecosystem for Memes on the BNB Chain, so I wouldn’t deliberately participate. But now that users have come, and developers have arrived, we should welcome them, provide infrastructure, and support them in building on-chain.

Meme coins actually have a strong demand for the chain's infrastructure; they require extremely fast information feedback, high real-time performance, asynchronous execution, and quick on-chain transactions, which poses a challenge to the underlying layer. When I see these demands, I push the team to upgrade the chain's performance so that this ecosystem can support such a high-frequency culture.

But to this day, I still have not bought any Meme coins for “investment purposes.” I have only tried to buy a little to understand this culture, as part of the experience process, rather than to pursue tenfold or twentyfold returns. I’m not that kind of player.

• Host: There’s another particularly interesting phenomenon in this wave of Memes on BNB, which is the sudden emergence of a large number of “Chinese tickers.” The entire Western community is asking: what’s going on here? What do you think of this phenomenon?

CZ: I think this is completely a coincidence. The starting point was actually very random. In February of this year, I first tried to buy a small Meme on-chain using CrossWallet. I thought the interface was very simple, and I understood private keys, but I ended up getting MEV attacked, the transaction failed, and the community laughed at me for a long time.

I was playing with a very small amount, maybe fifty to a hundred dollars, just wanting to experience the process. But whatever I did, everyone paid special attention. Later, they even started creating memes around my dog, my avatar, and anything I said; everything turned into a Meme. During that time, I had to be careful about what I posted because as soon as I posted something, the community would immediately use it to create memes.

For a while, I was even afraid to tweet because it was too easy to be turned into a meme. Later, I thought, forget it, let them do what they want; the community can play however they like, and it actually created a certain atmosphere.

Especially recently, on the day of the Mid-Autumn Festival, I originally posted “Happy Mid-Autumn Festival,” but then deleted it and reposted, changing it to “Happy Mid-Autumn Festival, send your Meme images.” The Mid-Autumn Festival is a Chinese holiday, so the content flooding the community was all Chinese memes, mooncakes, Chang'e, the moon, and various Chinese tickers were generated this way.

For example, “Zhao Chang'e,” which feminizes my name and plays with the Chinese pronunciation, can only be understood by Chinese users, but this cultural collision has created a unique style, energizing the entire community, and many Solana users have also flowed into the BNB chain because of this. Some Western players have even started learning Chinese just to understand these memes. None of this was planned; it just happened naturally.

• Host: Thank you for your explanation. Now I’ll ask one last question related to Memes, and then we’ll move on to the topics of perp and more trading systems. My original question was—what does BNB need to do differently to surpass Solana in on-chain culture and trading narratives? But while I was reading tweets, I saw a viewpoint from Frank DeGods, who said that BNB might have a structural advantage that Solana doesn’t have—a complete vertical stack: Memes launch on platforms like Fourmeme → if they perform well, they go to Aster → if they perform even better, they might go to Binance Alpha → and finally, there’s even a chance to go on Binance spot. He said no other public chain can provide a path that connects on-chain native trading behavior all the way to centralized exchange high-traffic entry points. Is this path intentionally designed? Do you think this is a unique advantage of the BNB ecosystem?

CZ: This was not intentionally designed at all. For the past six and a half to seven years, I have been busy with the operation of centralized exchanges, I did not plan the rhythms of BNB Chain in advance; it has completely evolved naturally.

After I got out of prison, I decided not to spend time on the specific operations of Binance anymore, but rather to focus my energy on the on-chain ecosystem and decentralized infrastructure. Binance, as the largest exchange in the world, does naturally provide a traffic tower top, but that doesn’t mean it only serves the BNB ecosystem. Binance will still list tokens from various chains, including Solana’s Memes.

However, it is true that people in the BNB ecosystem feel “closer to the exchange” because they hold BNB themselves and are more willing to interact with Binance’s system. This is not an exclusive advantage, but it is indeed a kind of community stickiness structure.

If you look at the opposite case, for example, Solana’s Phantom wallet, it only supports Solana and does not support BNB. On our side, both TrustWallet and CrossWallet support multiple chains, allowing Solana users to enter the BNB ecosystem, but Phantom users cannot directly connect to BNB. This actually shows that our ecosystem structure is more open.

So the “vertical stack” you mentioned is indeed a real existing advantage, but it is not a closed garden, nor is it a deliberately constructed political structure; it is an organically formed positive feedback system.

• Host: We’ve talked about Memes; now let’s discuss another core narrative of this cycle—the on-chain perpetual contracts, or perp DEX. I want to start with Aster. Why do you think perp DEX has suddenly become one of the main narratives in this cycle? How did Hyperliquid manage to rise to the forefront so quickly?

CZ: In fact, perp DEX is not a brand new concept. Early on, there was dYdX and other projects that did similar things. Hyperliquid’s advantage lies in its on-chain transaction recording, using a vault model, and they have done a great job in market promotion, creating a lot of discussions. For example, they had James Wynn post a billion-dollar order on-chain, which is a very topical subject that can bring traffic and attention.

But I have always believed that traders instinctively want trading privacy. On Wall Street, all seasoned traders do not want their orders to be exposed to the market in real-time, and they don’t want others to reconstruct their strategies even afterward. Once a strategy is deduced, it can be targeted for hedging and sniping. So, based on my twenty years of experience in the trading industry, this completely transparent on-chain order is actually against professional trading logic, and I find it hard to fully agree with it.

In June of this year, I tweeted that if someone could create a perp DEX with “hidden orders” or “privacy matching,” that would be a direction. On that very day, I received pitches from thirty projects, and the Aster team was the first to jump out and say they could achieve this functionality. There were also teams that said they could create a completely private matching engine, and we directly invested in several of them.

So I believe that with the current development speed, whether it’s this round or the next four-year cycle at the latest, the trading volume of on-chain perps will approach or even surpass that of centralized exchanges.

• Host: So how large is the market space for perp DEX? What conditions need to be met for it to really “flip” centralized exchanges, or even surpass them?

CZ: There are two paths happening simultaneously. On one hand, when new users enter crypto, they will definitely start with centralized exchanges; they want to use email, passwords, and customer support, rather than directly dealing with private keys, MEV, and various address strings. So CEX remains the main entry point. Currently, over 90% of the global population has not entered crypto, and once they do, their first stop will definitely be Binance or other CEXs.

But as users gradually understand on-chain logic, learn to manage assets and private keys, and start seeking earlier, higher-risk, and higher-leverage products, they will naturally migrate to DEXs. Because DEXs can offer things that CEXs won’t list, whether it’s new tokens, Memes, or early-stage immature assets.

So I believe that in the long term, twenty, thirty, or even fifty years from now, everything will migrate on-chain; it’s just that traditional finance will not disappear overnight. Centralized exchanges will exist for a long time due to their banking channels and compliance structures, and both forms will coexist for a long time. But ultimately, decentralization will become the main battleground.

• Host: So the user path is: first go to CEX, familiarize themselves with the market, and then enter the on-chain deep waters. What conditions need to be met for Aster to truly surpass Hyperliquid?

CZ: If you look at it now, sometimes Aster has already surpassed Hyperliquid in certain time periods. But I believe the two are not in the same race; they are different types of use cases. For example, Hyperliquid is a fully public order book, suitable for users who are willing to disclose their trading activities. Aster is more inclined to introduce privacy orders and a more open cross-chain native deposit method, allowing native Solana assets to participate directly; it accepts assets from more chains.

Many people mistakenly think it “belongs to BNB Chain,” but in fact, it is very open. Both projects are quite new, having only been online for a little over a year; Aster even evolved from ApolloX, which has a bit of history but is still in a very early stage. The first place is not necessarily always the first; sometimes the second place runs faster because it can directly evolve its functions.

• Host: This is similar to the path of OpenSea; being the first to launch doesn’t guarantee final victory. So why doesn’t Hyperliquid just add a “dark pool order” feature? If they did, would it directly erase Aster’s differentiation advantage?

CZ: They can certainly add it; I even suggested they do so. But competition among exchanges has never been about a single feature; one feature can be copied. What truly creates a gap is the long-term product philosophy, user protection mechanisms, how to respond when issues arise, and which Layer 1 you will ultimately migrate to, whether the public chain ecosystem will build a complete toolchain around you. These are the decisive factors, not just one or two features.

• Host: So if we want to evaluate which perp DEX is stronger, what should be the core indicators to look at? Recently, DefiLlama stopped tracking Aster because it couldn’t distinguish between real volume and incentive volume, and some people say the current trading volume is not credible.

CZ: I don't use a single data point to make judgments. The combination of trading volume and user numbers might form a framework, but it still doesn't fully explain the issue. Because when there are airdrop incentives, users will keep placing orders to mine the airdrop, which falls under "incentive-driven activity." Would you call it fake volume? They indeed paid fees and placed orders; it's just that their motivations are different.

In the era of centralized exchanges, we faced the same problem: how to distinguish between real trades and wash trading? If a platform charges fees, then as long as both parties pay the fees, from the exchange's perspective, it is considered a "real trade." But if there are zero fees, then it is certainly wash trading, which complicates things.

So I believe that we should label the incentive status and let the market judge for itself—for example, "there are airdrop incentives at this stage," which users can understand at a glance, without needing to completely exclude the data. As for how users choose, they will ultimately go to the place with the deepest liquidity, the lowest fees, and the most stable execution; that will always be the core.

• Host: How do you think users can determine if a platform's liquidity is real? Is there a straightforward but effective way?

CZ: There actually is. When I was on Wall Street, we were very direct—take a sum of money, say $1,000, and place an order of $500 on two platforms, then see how much can be executed, what the slippage is, and how much is deducted in fees. Then transfer the assets to the same wallet to visually see the difference in the final amount of tokens received. Even if users don't systematically do this, they will form preferences after a few experiences, and later they will make larger trades on smoother platforms. This is the most authentic market voting mechanism.

• Host: If you were 23 years old now and just entering the field in 2025, which track would you choose to play in? On-chain, AI, infrastructure, or entrepreneurship?

CZ: I would give a possibly controversial suggestion—if you have a safe backup, you should join a startup team earlier rather than sitting in a stable position for a long time. The real opportunities are in startups, not in mature companies. But the premise is that you must have the worst-case scenario in mind; if everything goes to zero, you can still survive.

So the key is not "should I go all in," but "do you have a foundation that can withstand failure?" If you have a Plan B, then you should go for it. If you don't have a Plan B, then accumulate your skills first before diving in. Opportunity windows won't wait for anyone.

• Host: One narrative I dislike the most in the crypto space is, "You only have a short window of a few years to go all in; otherwise, you'll always be a bottom-tier worker." GCR's famous tweet said that after graduating from college, a person only has a very short time to take a gamble; otherwise, they will never turn their life around. Many people act on this mindset, which is why they sell on Solana in 17 seconds, betting on a "one-shot success." What do you think about this time pressure? How long do young people really have to "succeed"?

CZ: I am a counterexample. I founded Binance when I was nearly 40 years old, and now I am 48. For nearly twenty years before that, I was doing various jobs, writing code, building systems, and later managing. I had a good career, but entrepreneurship is not something that is completed in your twenties.

Many people think entrepreneurs are very young, but statistically, the vast majority of successful entrepreneurs are over 40 years old. However, I also believe that if you want to start a business, you should try earlier; the sooner you try and make mistakes, the better. But don't crash into the first wall—it's okay to fail, but you must have the ability to get back up.

I have seen many excellent founders who are smart and have strong execution, but because they are too eager and want to "succeed" too quickly, they lose control of their mindset. So don't be overly anxious; don't let "time anxiety" ruin your judgment.

• Host: Is there anything you would like to say to the community in closing? For example, what are you currently busy with, or what direction do you hope everyone will pay attention to?

CZ: I don't have much to add. I just want to say that the crypto industry will never be a smooth road; it will definitely be accompanied by shocks, fluctuations, and controversies. But the truly strong teams, communities, and developers will continue to build amidst these upheavals.

I have also experienced many extremely difficult times along the way, but I always believe that as long as we are doing the right thing—no scams, no harm to users, no exploiting loopholes, but rather continuous construction—then whether it’s Memes, utility tokens, or on-chain securities, every path has value.

I am a builder, and as long as we keep building, this industry will definitely get better. This week may be tumultuous, but from a longer-term perspective, these emotional fluctuations are just a small point in the curve; we just need to keep moving forward.

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