Original Translation | Deep Tide TechFlow
Key Summary
In this interview conducted by Michael Jerome, Binance founder CZ (Changpeng Zhao) shares his life journey after stepping down, reflections during his time in prison, a new understanding of wealth and life goals, and unique insights into the future development of the cryptocurrency industry, Memecoins, and decentralized finance (DeFi). The interview is hosted by ThreadGuy, and CZ also delves into the next market cycle for Bitcoin, the rapid rise of BNB Chain, the competitive landscape of perpetual contract decentralized exchanges (DEX) like Aster and Hyperliquid, and how young developers can find their direction in today's crypto industry. This conversation is a must-see for anyone interested in cryptocurrency, blockchain technology, or entrepreneurship.
Broadcast Date: October 11, 2025, some information may be outdated.
Hyperliquid Jeff's Tweet Timing and Missed Meeting
Host: A lot has happened recently, and we will discuss it all. I woke up this morning to find that tweets about Jeff have taken over Twitter. What’s going on? Everyone is talking about it. You retweeted a post from 2018 mentioning a group Jeff was involved in. The buzz on Twitter is high today. Can you share the story behind it?
CZ: To be honest, I don’t know Jeff and don’t remember meeting him. I haven’t been directly involved in all the teams and incubation projects of Binance Season 1 Labs, so my understanding of Jeff is limited. Earlier this year, Ella told me he was a member of Season 1 and asked if I would be willing to chat with him. I agreed, thinking it would be good to understand the situation. However, I felt he wasn’t fully prepared for the meeting. We didn’t discuss any trades or express any intent to collaborate. In fact, their project had already matured significantly, while we prefer to invest in early-stage projects. We aim to help these projects grow from scratch through our incubation and residency programs. So, the meeting felt more like a casual exchange.
Unfortunately, I missed the meeting because I set my alarm wrong and overslept. Since there was no clear agenda for the meeting, we didn’t reschedule.
Host: Do you regret missing that meeting?
CZ: No, I don’t regret it. That meeting was just a few months ago, and by then they had already achieved significant success, with a high project valuation. For us, it was no longer a suitable investment target. We have never favored large-scale acquisitions; our largest acquisition to date is CoinMarketCap, which was in the hundreds of millions. So, their project had exceeded our investment scope. Because there was no clear goal for the meeting, we didn’t reschedule. They were busy, and I was busy, and it just passed. It wasn’t a meeting with trading intentions, just a regular exchange.
Life After Binance and Finding Life Goals
Host: From now on, what are your goals? You are undoubtedly one of the richest people in the world and a leading figure in the cryptocurrency industry. Now, after experiencing the turmoil of imprisonment, you are active on Twitter again. I want to know, what are your current goals? What drives you to keep moving forward?
CZ: To be honest, I have never been particularly concerned about money. Success like Binance came so quickly that I never experienced the gradual accumulation of wealth or the enjoyment of it. From the beginning, we were very busy, dealing with emergencies almost every day, and later dealing with the U.S. government, which brought a lot of pressure.
I come from a relatively ordinary family background and have little desire for a luxurious life; my requirements for life are simple, as long as things work properly. Binance grew very quickly, going from zero to the largest cryptocurrency exchange in the world in just five months. Seven months later, we were on the cover of Forbes, going straight from zero to the Forbes cover, which felt very unreal. I thought to myself, “Is this real?” But in reality, I didn’t feel that my life had changed. I didn’t cash out my wealth, and my bank account didn’t increase much. Indeed, I was slightly wealthier than before, but far from the billions people talk about. So, I didn’t experience the gradual accumulation of wealth.
In the things I want to do, I never feel poor. I believe I don’t need to prove myself through wealth, so I feel satisfied with my identity as a successful entrepreneur. I don’t need to be a serial entrepreneur; I think I’ve done well enough. Although I made some mistakes during my entrepreneurial journey, they were not serious. I have never deceived anyone, and users were not harmed because of it. On the contrary, I have always worked hard to protect our users, BNB investors, and all team members with shares in the company. I believe our team has performed exceptionally well. I also strive to protect the platform we built together. I am willing to take responsibility for my mistakes and face them bravely.
During my time in prison, I had more time to reflect on what truly matters. Honestly, prison made my thinking clearer. I realized that health is the most important thing. Without health, everything else is meaningless. Fortunately, in prison, I had nothing else to do, so it was a kind of forced “rest.” There, I began to think: if I lost everything, what would I miss the most? The answer is family and relationships. As for other things, like delicious food or a comfortable bed, while I would miss them, they are all surmountable and secondary.
Before going to prison, I had already realized that I could no longer manage Binance, but I was still a shareholder of the company. At that time, I was thinking: what kind of things would excite and make me happy? After careful consideration, I believe humans may be inherently designed to help others. When you can take care of yourself, helping others makes you feel better. If I am hungry, I will first solve my own basic needs; if I am cold, I need to find shelter. But once those basic needs are met, helping others brings me satisfaction and joy.
So, I began to think about how I could better help others. At that time, I had already pleaded guilty to federal charges in the U.S., so I didn’t care about my reputation being damaged. Nevertheless, I still cared a lot about my credibility. I have never harmed any users or anyone else. I no longer pursue power because I have resigned from Binance. I have no interest in money because I spend very little, not even a small portion of what people say I own. So, these things are not important to me.
I hope that when I am old, I can calmly tell myself that I did my best to help others. That is what I care about most now. I hope to have a positive impact on the world. If my abilities are sufficient, I will do more; if my abilities are limited, I will do my best. I believe education is a highly promising direction because it can impact many people. If we can establish a digital education platform that benefits everyone, it would be very meaningful.
Therefore, we have been working hard for this. After I was released from prison, I spent a few months adjusting my mindset, and that experience deeply affected me. A few months later, I started to be active on Twitter again, communicating normally with people. At the same time, I spent time with my family. Later, I found that I could still participate in managing the investment part of the portfolio, which was unrelated to Binance. I began to work with Binance Labs and clarified the brand distinction. I am now very focused on the development of the BNB Chain ecosystem, emphasizing again that this is unrelated to centralized exchanges. I will invest in this area and help others.
For me, the greatest joy now is helping other founders succeed. I am happy to be their mentor, supporter, or any role. This is where my life and goals are now.
Lessons from Imprisonment and Shift in Priorities
Host: Considering your position in the cryptocurrency industry and past experiences, do you feel a responsibility to influence the future direction of this industry?
CZ: I don’t feel that way. First of all, I don’t think I am that important; I believe no individual can be solely responsible for the entire crypto industry. The industry itself is a self-adjusting ecosystem that will experience lows (the so-called “crypto winter”) and cyclical fluctuations, but each recovery will be more mature than the last. Therefore, I believe the future of the crypto industry is bright.
While I don’t see myself as a leader in the industry, I do hope to contribute. I will focus on areas I am familiar with and use my influence to promote industry development. The crypto industry is the field I know best and where I can truly make an impact. So, I now spend a lot of time communicating with people in the industry. My social circle is mainly concentrated in this field, and everyone is willing to discuss crypto-related topics with me.
Of course, there are also some people from other fields who come to me, such as those in the AI field; some people from Facebook have also communicated with me, but their way of communicating is completely different from those in the crypto industry. In the biotechnology field, when we decide to invest, we often need to proactively reach out to relevant individuals because I am not familiar with that field.
I hope to continue contributing to the crypto industry, but I don’t feel responsible for the entire industry. That kind of responsibility is too heavy. I believe there are many excellent participants in the crypto industry who are also driving its development. I am just one of many contributors, and that role makes me feel more relaxed and comfortable.
Current State of the Cryptocurrency Industry and On-Chain Culture
Host: The state of cryptocurrency Twitter, especially the on-chain culture, seems a bit strange. For example, Bitcoin just hit an all-time high, but today it has dropped a few percentage points. Yet, when you browse Twitter’s timeline, it is filled with various negative sentiments. From a broader perspective, many positive changes are happening in the crypto industry. For instance, the Trump administration has started to accept cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin, Solana, and Ethereum ETFs have been launched, and major global financial institutions are adopting stablecoins. From the outside, it seems that cryptocurrencies have achieved tremendous success and have even permeated all aspects of the world.
However, the on-chain culture seems somewhat stagnant, especially the meme coin craze, which, while still ongoing, is not as large as before. Many people feel confused about the next development direction on-chain. What is your optimistic outlook on the future of on-chain culture?
CZ: I agree with your view; the issues you mentioned do exist, but overall, this is a positive phenomenon because it means the industry is continuously expanding. In 2013 and 2014, people referred to this field as the “Bitcoin industry,” and the focus was entirely on Bitcoin, with no broader discussion of other cryptocurrencies or blockchain technology. By 2017, the emergence of Ethereum opened a new chapter and also gave rise to some promising altcoins.
The Ethereum ERC token standard has driven the rise of ICOs, leading to a rapid increase in the number of projects. This growth laid the foundation for the industry's explosion in 2021, bringing innovations such as DeFi and NFTs. Although the hype around DeFi and NFTs has somewhat declined, they remain important components of the industry. Now, we are seeing more ETFs, stablecoins, and other financial products being launched, which is undoubtedly a positive signal for the industry's development.
As the industry expands, the differentiation within it has become more pronounced. This differentiation is evident not only in various technological fields but also in the demographics and geographical distribution of participants. In fact, this differentiation is a natural result of the industry's growth.
The widespread participation of institutions has also driven changes in the industry. Governments, Wall Street, and central banks from various countries are gradually entering this market, bringing in more types of participants. The involvement of traditional financial institutions has created a new balance with the libertarians within the industry, and I find myself in a centrist position.
At the same time, new participants are continuously entering this field, bringing more perspectives and voices. The cryptocurrency industry is a decentralized ecosystem that welcomes everyone to participate. Diversity, debate, competition, and collaboration are characteristics of this industry and are also the driving forces behind its development.
I have become accustomed to the chaotic situation of this emerging field. I maintain an open attitude towards this industry, so I believe that this diversity and dynamic change are positive. We should do our best to support everyone and contribute to the ongoing development of the industry.
Host: About five months ago, you mentioned on Ferox's podcast that you predicted Bitcoin's price could be between $500,000 and $1 million. Do you still have confidence in that prediction?
CZ: I still believe that prediction is reasonable. Of course, I must admit that price predictions themselves are not reliable. Honestly, no one can accurately predict price movements, including myself. I have communicated with many industry professionals, and they also do not have clear answers. Price predictions are more of a personal opinion.
However, if we look back at historical four-year cycles, we usually find that every four years, Bitcoin's price peaks between October and December. Based on this pattern and the current market performance we see, I remain optimistic about Bitcoin's future.
Bitcoin is currently close to its all-time high, and although there may be fluctuations of 1% to 2% occasionally, for those who have been in the industry for 11 years, such fluctuations are minor. Bitcoin has previously dropped 50% in a day and then risen 50% the next day. In the long run, such volatility is very normal from the perspective of the crypto industry.
Comparison of BNB Chain and Solana
Host: I think many viewers may have first encountered cryptocurrency through the meme coin craze on Solana in 2024 and the rise of AI. In the past month, they may have had more interactions with the BNB Chain for the first time. So, how do you view the position of BNB Chain in the entire cryptocurrency industry in 2025? How is it positioned in relation to other chains and infrastructures?
CZ: Yes, in the current blockchain ecosystem, Bitcoin is still the largest blockchain, but it lacks programmability and does not have smart contract functionality, which limits its capabilities. The networks of Bitcoin and Ethereum have become saturated due to their large user bases, which is also one reason for the generally high transaction fees.
The BNB Chain has been developing for some time and currently consists of three main technical chains: the storage chain Greenfield, the EVM-compatible smart contract chain BNB Smart Chain, and the Layer 2 technology-based opBNB. Additionally, there are some new chains under development that adopt different technical architectures. Overall, the BNB Chain focuses more on practicality and trading liquidity, as this is closely related to our background.
In terms of community and user groups, the users of the BNB Chain are relatively stable. In contrast, Solana is a very powerful blockchain, but it currently resembles a chain primarily focused on meme coins. While Solana has the potential for further development, its community currently has a large number of meme coin traders, and recently, meme coin activity on Solana has decreased.
Meanwhile, activity on the BNB Chain is increasing. In the past week, we have seen many Solana users transitioning to the BNB Chain, which is a positive sign. From community feedback, BNB Chain users tend to hold tokens for the long term rather than pursue daily volatility.
Of course, there are significant differences between different chains. For example, some blockchain projects in the U.S. have smaller trading volumes but adopt interesting technologies, such as the Move blockchain. This indicates that the entire industry is still in its early stages and has a lot of room for development.
Host: Nevertheless, Solana and its on-chain activities are indeed an important story in the current cycle. Do you think BNB can surpass and maintain its dominance in on-chain and meme coin activities?
CZ: I think it is possible. In the past few weeks, meme coin activity on the BNB Chain has indeed surpassed that of Solana. I understand that currently, there are five meme coins on the BNB Chain with market capitalizations reaching between $100 million and $500 million, while a similar situation has not occurred on Solana, and Solana's performance in recent weeks may have been affected.
However, I do not believe that competition between blockchains is a zero-sum game; each chain has its unique historical background. For example, Solana's development is closely tied to FTX, and the collapse of FTX had a significant impact on the Solana team. Nevertheless, Solana has achieved a remarkable recovery.
However, during the recovery process, their ecosystem lost support from exchanges. Moreover, the current regulatory environment poses challenges for the entire industry. Under the leadership of the Biden administration and SEC Chairman Gary Gensler, many utility tokens face the risk of securities lawsuits, including BNB and other tokens.
If a project attempts to launch a product with practical use, it may face legal pressure from the SEC. Meme coins, on the other hand, often declare "no value or utility," which allows them to typically avoid these issues. For this reason, some projects on Solana may be more inclined to adopt a "pure speculation" strategy. For example, there is a platform called Pump, and I believe that if similar platforms appeared in our ecosystem, it would raise many issues, even though I have no direct association with these platforms.
This also explains why meme coins have not widely appeared on many blockchains. Nevertheless, as long as Solana continues to maintain its speed, efficiency, and strong technical support, I believe it remains a blockchain worth paying attention to. However, my personal focus is currently more on the BNB Chain ecosystem. Our portfolio projects and wallets support both Solana and the BNB Chain.
Our investment strategy is open, but clearly, I have invested more time and energy in the BNB Chain ecosystem. We are committed to supporting innovation and helping founders drive project development. Currently, the BNB Chain ecosystem is very active, and although we face some challenges every day, overall, I am confident in its development.
CZ's Changing Views on Memecoins
Host: I noticed your comments on Solana, and I also see that the infrastructure of the BNB Chain seems to be undergoing similar changes, especially regarding the Launchpad standard. You have publicly expressed a somewhat lukewarm attitude towards meme coins multiple times in 2024, such as mentioning in a podcast that you are not a staunch supporter of meme coins. But recently, you seem to have a more positive attitude towards meme coins. What is the reason behind this change?
CZ: First of all, I want to clarify that I am not against meme coins. I have never explicitly stated opposition; I just personally do not have enthusiasm for them. This does not mean I do not support their development. In fact, I am neither a creator of meme coins nor a trader of NFTs. I have never purchased an NFT, and my investment in altcoins is also very limited. My main holdings are only Bitcoin and BNB, which are assets I hold for the long term. I do not frequently invest in other blockchain projects, but I always support the ecological development of all blockchains.
I maintain close cooperation with many blockchain developers and support their project development. Although I personally have not purchased meme coins, that does not prevent me from supporting the growth of these ecosystems. If users achieve success on other blockchains, I will also provide funding support for projects in related fields. For example, I would invest in teams focused on developing platforms and infrastructure.
Every day, I receive numerous project requests, such as people developing new Launchpad projects, stablecoins, or meme coin trading platforms. If I believe the team has potential, I will do my best to support their work.
I just think that if meme coins enter the BNB Chain, we should welcome them while optimizing our infrastructure to meet their needs. Meme coins pose new demands on blockchain technology, such as rapid updates and real-time information processing. These demands present high challenges for the technical capabilities of the infrastructure. So far, I personally have not actively invested in meme coins. I have tried to purchase some meme coins just to learn, not for profit. I am not the type of investor who hopes to achieve tenfold returns in a short time; that is not my style.
Host: The infrastructure and technology of the BNB Chain, especially regarding meme coins, have made significant progress. I have also participated in many related transactions, and the experience has been very good. If this trend continues, how do you think meme coin activity on the BNB Chain will develop? After all, the performance over the past month has surprised many people.
CZ: It is difficult to predict because the lifecycle of meme coins changes very quickly. Some meme coins may become popular rapidly; for example, Doge is one of the longer-lasting examples. But at the same time, millions of new meme coins are created every day.
I do not consider myself at the so-called "market forefront," so I am not the best candidate for predicting market size and growth. I focus more on how to build infrastructure to support these activities. I am not a frequent trader but a long-term holder.
My background is as a technical builder, and I hope to create efficient tools for others to help them achieve their goals. I see many vibrant young people with strong technical abilities, and I hope to support them in further advancing blockchain technology.
The Rise of Chinese Memecoins
Host: Recently, many China-themed meme coins have appeared on the BNB Chain, attracting widespread attention from the Western community. How do you view the rise of these coins?
CZ: I believe this phenomenon is purely coincidental and happened by chance. In February of this year, I first tried trading meme coins through the blockchain, using Trust Wallet at the time. This wallet has a simple interface, and I was relatively familiar with using private keys, so I thought it would be straightforward. However, the actual situation surprised me—I encountered an MEV (Maximum Extractable Value) attack, and the transaction failed. This incident later became a joke, as everyone laughed at my unfamiliarity with such trades. Nevertheless, I learned a lot from this experience, even though the amount I invested was not much, probably only $50 or $100.
As time went on, my attempts gradually attracted the community's attention. Especially when I posted tweets related to DOGE, people began to show great interest in my pet dog and dog-related memes. Later, I found that no matter what tweet or image I posted, the community would turn it into a meme. For a while, I even became very cautious and hesitant to tweet freely. But then I realized that this was too restrictive, so I decided to let go and tweet whatever I wanted. If the community wanted to turn my content into memes, so be it. Gradually, this interaction became part of the meme coin culture on the BNB Chain, with many participants being Chinese users.
Binance co-founder He Yi, who is very proficient in Chinese and also good at writing poetry, once replied to a tweet about life biases, which was later turned into a meme. Just earlier this week, I posted a tweet for the Mid-Autumn Festival, wishing everyone a happy holiday. I then deleted that tweet and reposted with the content, "Wishing everyone a happy Mid-Autumn Festival, send your best memes." I originally just wanted to engage the community and add some fun. However, since the Mid-Autumn Festival is a traditional Chinese holiday, the memes created by the community revolved around Chinese elements, such as mooncakes and the moon.
The naming of these meme coins is also full of Chinese characteristics. For example, someone turned my name into a feminized version as a joke, a creativity that only those who understand Chinese can grasp. As community interactions became more frequent, the participation of Chinese users rapidly increased, and the popularity of these coins soared. All of this evolved naturally and was not pre-planned.
Analysis of Confusion Regarding the Meme Craze
Host: Recently, I've been trying to figure out what exactly is happening behind the meme coin craze on the BNB Chain using Google Translate. One particularly controversial project called Meme Rush has a special mechanism: users can only purchase the project's tokens through KYC if the market cap is below $1 million, which prevents U.S. users from participating immediately. While I'm not sure how much information you can disclose, I want to ask what the purpose of launching a project like Meme Rush is.
CZ: I am not involved in the Meme Rush project; I only learned about its existence yesterday. At that time, the community was filled with discussions, and many people were asking, "What is this thing?" I didn't even know it was called Meme Rush. It wasn't until I saw related information that I realized the project had some issues. However, I didn't pay much attention because I am not responsible for managing it and did not actively seek to understand the details. I usually let the community develop projects on their own without direct intervention.
When I learned about this project, I happened to be flying to Bahrain for a conference. I left early that day, met with the local central bank governor, and participated in a panel discussion on stage. After a busy day of meetings, I found that the community had started accusing me of "selling fake coins," which left me very confused. By the time I finally figured out what was going on, the market had already experienced some fluctuations, but it hadn't completely collapsed. This situation also illustrates the risks of meme coins—they lack price support and can be very volatile. In the past few days, meme coin prices surged rapidly and then fell just as quickly, which shocked me.
Host: Next, I want to ask a question related to meme coins. I originally wanted to ask about the differences between the BNB Chain and Solana Chain, but while reading tweets, I found that Frank D. Gods made a very interesting point. He believes that the BNB Chain has a unique advantage because it has a complete vertical ecosystem: meme coins can first launch through Launchpad, then list on Aster, and if successful, can enter Binance Alpha, and finally go to Binance Spot.
Is this ecosystem design intentional? Do you think this will make activities on the BNB Chain more active?
CZ: First of all, this is definitely not an intentional design. For the past six and a half years, I have been focused on centralized exchange matters and did not deliberately plan the BNB Chain's ecosystem. These developments are entirely the result of natural evolution. Then, I decided not to spend time on centralized exchanges anymore, so where should I spend my time?
I began to focus on decentralized things. I believe Binance Exchange is a huge advantage, but that doesn't mean Binance will only list projects or tokens from the BNB Chain. In contrast, ecosystems like Solana may be more exclusive. For example, the Phantom wallet only supports Solana and not the BNB Chain. Trust Wallet, on the other hand, supports multiple blockchains, including BNB and Solana. Therefore, the BNB Chain's ecosystem is actually more open.
When Solana users want to bridge to the BNB Chain, they can use Trust Wallet instead of Phantom. Additionally, platforms like Radium only support Solana. So, in a sense, other ecosystems are more exclusive. The close connection between the BNB Chain and Binance means that more users hold BNB, which further enhances community cohesion. The BNB Chain does have advantages, but it is not a closed ecosystem.
Comparison of Hyperliquid and Aster
Host: While discussing meme coins, I noticed another important trend is the rise of targeted exchanges. Regarding Aster, I want to start with a question: Why has the rise of perp (perpetual contract) exchanges been so significant in the cryptocurrency space? What do you think are the reasons for Hyperliquid's early success?
CZ: First of all, perp exchanges are not a brand new concept. In fact, there were many similar projects before dydx emerged. However, Hyperliquid has excelled in trade traceability and liquidity pool utilization, and their marketing has been very successful, attracting large orders like those from James Wayne. These factors have contributed to their early success.
However, I believe that traders' demand for privacy has always been important. Based on my conversations with Wall Street traders, they typically do not want their orders to be publicly visible in real-time, and even after a trade is completed, they do not want others to see the order information. This is because such information could be used to reverse-engineer their algorithms, leading to attacks on their strategies. Therefore, transparency in trading is not always beneficial. This is an important insight I have gained from my 20 years of experience in Wall Street, cryptocurrency, and centralized exchanges. In early June of this year, I tweeted about this issue, and that day I received over 30 related proposals. Aster proposed a solution that could implement hidden orders, so we decided to invest in this project.
Host: So, what do you think the market potential for perp exchanges is? What conditions do they need to meet to succeed?
CZ: I believe there are two key factors. For new users who are just getting into cryptocurrency, they typically choose CEX because these platforms offer email login, password protection, and customer support services, rather than requiring users to manage address keys or deal with complex technical issues like MEV (Maximum Extractable Value). Additionally, CEX interfaces are more user-friendly and provide a better experience for newcomers. Currently, the user base of CEX has not yet reached saturation—over 90% of people worldwide have not entered the cryptocurrency space. When these people first enter the market, they often choose CEX.
However, over time, decentralized exchanges have begun to offer more innovative products, such as early-stage token access. In the long run, I believe that in the next 20, 30, or 50 years, cryptocurrency trading will completely shift on-chain. But before that, the influx of traditional users will affect this process. Centralized exchanges will continue to improve, while decentralized exchanges will gradually attract more users. Nevertheless, centralized exchanges will still hold an important position in the market due to their fiat channels, banking partnerships, and regulatory support. This transformation may take decades or even longer.
Host: So users typically start with centralized exchanges, then deepen their understanding of cryptocurrency, and eventually turn to decentralized exchanges. What do you think Aster needs to do to truly surpass Hyperliquid?
CZ: It depends on time and development direction. I believe the positioning and use cases of the two have already diverged. Hyperliquid is more suitable for users who want their trades to be completely public, while Aster focuses on providing a certain level of privacy. Additionally, Aster does a better job of supporting native asset deposits, such as allowing users to trade using native Solana tokens and supporting more blockchains. This openness gives Aster an advantage in certain aspects.
It is important to note that both Aster and Hyperliquid are very new projects, with less than two years of development time. Aster is actually a derivative product of ApolloX, so it has some historical accumulation, but both are still in their early stages. In the future, more new players may emerge in the competition, and being the first in the market does not always mean being able to maintain a lead. Sometimes, latecomers can learn faster and achieve surpassing results.
Host: This reminds me of the situation with OpenSea. So, do you think Hyperliquid might add privacy features? If they do, would it impact Aster's market positioning?
CZ: Of course, I would suggest they do so. However, competition among exchanges does not rely solely on a single feature. Over time, different exchanges will launch their own features and philosophies, and the visions of the founders will vary. They will imitate each other while continuously innovating. In addition, factors such as user protection, error handling, and technical architecture are also crucial.
In the future, these exchanges may migrate to L1 blockchains, and after the migration, their technical choices and ecosystem attractiveness will determine their long-term development. Therefore, competition is far more than just a single feature issue. The current stage is merely the starting point of their development, and many possibilities await exploration in the future.
How DEX Competes with CEX
Host: Recently, there has been some controversy as Defi Llama paused tracking Aster. The reason is that Aster's trading volume surged, and Defi Llama could not determine which of these volumes were real trades and which were fake or wash trades. They decided to pause tracking until the issue is resolved.
What do you think is the most important metric for measuring the success of perp exchanges? What indicators should people focus on to determine which perp DEX (decentralized exchange) performs better?
CZ: This is not a question that can be measured with a single metric. If I had to choose a key indicator, it would be the combined performance of user numbers and trading volume. This has been a long-standing discussion point. Even centralized exchanges face similar issues, such as how to prevent wash trading.
From the perspective of an exchange, determining whether a trade is valuable mainly depends on the payment of transaction fees. If the trade has zero fees, that might be a different story. Airdrops are another situation: users may trade frequently to receive airdrop rewards, and this incentive mechanism does indeed drive up trading volume. However, whether such trades are meaningful entirely depends on the specific circumstances, which is a very subjective question.
For Defi Llama, they can directly state that an airdrop activity is ongoing, so users can understand that part of the trading volume is driven by airdrops. In fact, airdrops are quite common in many projects; for example, both Hyperliquid and Aster have conducted similar activities. Therefore, trading volume may be influenced by airdrops, user numbers, and address counts. It is important to note that decentralized exchanges do not have accounts in the traditional sense, only addresses. A bot can easily generate thousands of addresses, making it more complex to count user numbers.
Users will ultimately choose exchanges that can provide the best trading experience. This usually includes platforms with the best liquidity, the lowest trading fees, and the most stable and secure environments. These are the core factors that users truly care about, while other aspects are relatively secondary.
Host: So, how do you define "real trading volume"? Is there a clear standard? What does this concept actually mean?
CZ: I have some of my own views on this issue. For most users, if they want to buy a token worth $1,000, and that token is available on two exchanges, they might choose to buy $500 on each platform. Then they can compare the performance of the two exchanges, such as how many tokens they received and what fees were deducted after withdrawing to their wallets.
CZ's Commitment to Bitcoin
Host: You have a well-known story—over a decade ago, after discovering Bitcoin, you quit your job, invested all your assets, and even sold your house to fully immerse yourself in this field. Today, however, the trading situation on-chain is completely different; the average holding time is only 17 seconds, and more people are keen on trading meme coins, with almost no one willing to hold any assets long-term. You once fully committed your net worth to Bitcoin and wrote that you held it for two to three years until the price eventually rose. How did you build this belief in Bitcoin?
CZ: This was actually a gradual process. I spent about six months deeply understanding Bitcoin. I first encountered Bitcoin in July 2013, and by December of that year, I finally realized that this technology would change the future. Building this belief takes time. For me, it was not just an investment decision but a lifestyle choice. I wasn't thinking about buying Bitcoin and making a profit in a few days, weeks, or months and then exiting. I chose Bitcoin because I believed it represented the future.
Looking back at the internet era, I missed many opportunities when I was young. I had just graduated from college, and now I am 35 years old; in 15 years, I will be 50. I realized that if I didn't seize this opportunity, I might miss another technology that could change the future. Nowadays, artificial intelligence is a hot topic, but I am already 48 years old and feel that I might be too old to fully participate. At that time, I was 35, which was an excellent opportunity. I was fortunate to discover Bitcoin and realize its potential.
Once you have a clear understanding of the future, investing in Bitcoin is no longer just about short-term profits; I joined because I was confident about the future of this industry. I am a technician and a programmer, so I am very interested in the technology and philosophy behind Bitcoin. If I decided to immerse myself in this industry, I had to go all in. At that time, I didn't have much cash, so I chose to quit my job, sell my house, and fully commit.
Many people would think such a decision is very risky, but for me, I had a clear backup plan. If Bitcoin went to zero, I could find another IT-related job and earn a six-figure salary, and I could still live well. Therefore, although I took a significant financial risk, my backup plan was very solid.
After I bought Bitcoin, its price fell for two consecutive years, which was indeed painful. I kept asking myself whether I was really wrong or if everyone just hadn't realized its value yet. But I never wanted to sell my Bitcoin because I believed in its future. If I sold it, what else could I do? So I basically held on for 18 months.
Later, Bitcoin began to recover. After you experience the first price cycle, subsequent fluctuations become easier to accept. I bought in during a bear market at $200, and now the price has risen to $3,000. Some people would ask me, "What are you complaining about?" Yet now, when the price drops from $120,000 to $115,000, people start to worry. I think this reflects a different understanding of cycles.
Host: When did you make your first million?
CZ: It was around 2017 when Bitcoin's price was rising. In fact, this was before Binance.
Host: Where were you working in 2016 and 2017?
CZ: At that time, Bitcoin's price was continuously rising, and I didn't deliberately calculate my gains. Moreover, my company, BJ Tech, had a stable B2B business, which allowed me to achieve financial freedom.
Host: Who do you think is the most talented person you have ever collaborated with or competed against?
CZ: I have worked with some very smart programmers. My first boss was seven years older than me and was a genius programmer, but he was not very reliable. He was outstanding when focused, but he could only concentrate 5% of the time. So I learned how to become a better programmer from him, as well as an important lesson—reliability is more important.
Host: You have always been involved in trading early in your career, such as working at Bloomberg and the Tokyo Stock Exchange. Now we are talking about meme coins on BNB and Solana; how much do you think the trading model has changed from when you first entered this field to now?
CZ: The changes are significant. In traditional financial trading, exchanges usually set up dedicated data centers for coordinated positioning. The stock market is only open for 4 to 6 hours a day, with morning and afternoon trading sessions, and there is an auction phase before the market opens. Nowadays, the cryptocurrency market is open for trading 24 hours a day, with trades happening every minute and second, especially for meme coins, which are traded even more frequently. Although the technology and basic concepts of trading are similar, the actual content is completely different. So, this industry has indeed undergone tremendous changes.
Advice for Young Developers
Host: If you were to start over now, imagine you are 23 years old; which field would you choose to focus on? Whether it's cryptocurrency, other technologies, or finance. Since many young Solana users are watching this live stream, what areas do you think they should focus on?
CZ: I can offer some advice, but please don't take my ideas as absolute. First, I would suggest that young people get involved in entrepreneurship as early as possible. While working in an office is also good, the real opportunities often lie in starting a business. I would join a startup earlier to gain experience and also try to start my own company. Of course, entrepreneurship carries high risks, so when making decisions, you must consider the worst-case scenario. If everything fails, do you still have a way to sustain your life? That's why you need a backup plan. Once you have that backup plan, your mindset will be more stable, and you will have more confidence in entrepreneurship.
However, entrepreneurship also requires finding the right timing. If you start too early without enough experience, you may face failure. Therefore, young people should try to avoid acting blindly while ensuring they have sufficient preparation and support.
Host: I don't really like the narrative of "success has a time limit," like the famous tweet from GCR that mentions you only have a few years after graduating from college to try hard, or you might be stuck at the bottom forever. This mindset can lead people to rush into a "heroic trade" to avoid being a lifelong worker. What do you think about the younger generation's anxiety about the timing of success?
CZ: In fact, success does not have a time limit. I am a typical counterexample; I founded Binance at 40, and now I am 48. In the first 20 years of my career, I tried many different things and achieved some success. I grew from an excellent programmer to a manager in a large organization, but that doesn't mean you have to succeed early.
In reality, many successful founders are not young. Statistically, the average age of founders is usually over 40. Of course, the entrepreneurial process often comes with failures, but that is part of growth. My advice is that young people can try earlier, but at the same time, they should manage risks well to avoid major setbacks that they cannot bounce back from.
Additionally, don't be too impatient for quick success. We have seen some failed cases often because the founders were too eager for quick results. They may be smart, but their mindset is not stable enough, ultimately leading to failure. Therefore, entrepreneurship requires patience and long-term planning.
Host: Your story is very inspiring to me because it breaks the stereotype of "having to succeed when young." Finally, I want to ask you, what do you think about the future of crypto media? Do you have any advice for what I am doing, like this live stream? As a media company in the crypto industry, how should I succeed in this field?
CZ: Traditional media is gradually declining, and this industry is undergoing a complete transformation. In the future, social media will become mainstream. Many independent media organizations will emerge in social media, some of which may be very successful, with tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of followers and significant influence. As long as you can focus on content quality, there are great opportunities.
The emergence of cryptocurrency has also made micropayments possible. People may be willing to pay a small fee for each episode, such as 10 cents or 0.1 cents. If your audience is large enough, this model can generate considerable income. Additionally, you can increase revenue through sponsorship deals. Currently, there is a lack of strong and credible news sources globally, and traditional media can no longer meet this demand.
Closing Thoughts
Host: As a member of the crypto industry, I certainly support your success on BNB and other related projects. Finally, do you have any concluding thoughts to share? For example, what exciting work are you currently engaged in, or what projects should everyone pay attention to? What are your plans for the future?
CZ: I don't have much to add, but I want to say that the development of the crypto industry has never been smooth sailing. It is a challenging field that will encounter various setbacks and problems. However, I firmly believe that strong founders, excellent projects, and united communities can work together to overcome these difficulties. Problems will always arise, but as long as we work together as a whole, we will definitely find solutions.
From a personal experience perspective, I have also faced many difficulties. I have experienced the industry's glorious moments as well as its lows and tough phases. But I always believe that as long as we persist in doing the right things, maintain integrity, and help others rather than harm or deceive, this industry will continue to progress. The charm of the crypto industry lies in its diversity; you can choose to develop meme tokens, utility tokens, or security tokens, each field has enormous potential, which is also the advantage of crypto technology.
As a builder, I always believe that the growth of the industry relies on the efforts of builders. Cryptocurrency technology is more advanced than traditional currency technology and has greater future potential. Although the industry has been quite volatile this week, I remain confident about the future. Looking back, these fluctuations are only temporary, and over time, the industry will become stronger.
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