Original | Later On Site

Organized | Ding Dong (@XiaMiPP)

Editor's Note: 《Later On Site》_ recently conducted a video interview with Sun Yuchen, covering his personal worldview, entrepreneurial experiences, industry insights, and his understanding of cryptocurrency and meme coins. Given that the original video (click to jump to Bilibili to watch) is an hour and a half long, Odaily Planet Daily has selected some highlights, focusing on Sun Yuchen's response to the "concept god" label, his experiences with the Trump Group, how he has navigated multiple regulatory crises, and his unique insights on the value of meme coins. Enjoy!_

1. Personal Worldview and the "Concept God" Label

Host: I'm curious about your worldview. How do you understand yourself and then understand this world? Because everyone knows you are someone who can make money in extreme ways. If you had to rank them, money, fame, and power, how would you rank them?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, I don't think of myself as someone who makes money in an extreme way. I think this is more a result of the internet playing with memes, shaping me into a "concept god." It's a bit like the gods in ancient Greek mythology, each governing different concepts. The so-called concept god, everyone has a concept, and for some reason, I have been assigned the concept of "making money quickly."

Host: What do you think about people calling you "Sun Cut," as in "cutting leeks"?

Sun Yuchen: This is also playing with memes. I used to be called Sun Yuchen, but my name is a bit long, three characters, and somewhat hard to write, so people wanted to give me a nickname. Someone in the community started calling me "Brother Sun," initially meaning "brother." I personally find this nickname quite friendly and accept this expression. Even our company's media and public relations have started using it, for example, events are called "Brother Sun invites you…". Gradually, people started playing with memes, which is normal; I think this is a form of internet communication.

People always like to interpret serious and formal things in a humorous way; this is not necessarily a bad thing. From a communication perspective, this way is actually easier to spread.

For example, later someone commented, changing "Brother Sun" to "cutting leeks," and then "dog head" emojis appeared below. In my view, this is a dramatic form of communication; there is no malice, just playing with memes. If in the internet age you can't handle memes, that would be too backward.

Host: So would you place money before fame, or fame after money?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, I don't particularly value either money or fame. What I value more is my mission. For example, since 2012, I have felt that I am spreading cryptocurrency; I have a mission to do well in this industry. This is my highest priority—ensuring the mission is accomplished.

Why are fame and money not important? First, fame is volatile. If your actions are for others' evaluations, then there is no need. I have always insisted on doing the right thing, following principles. For example, if today the U.S. government thinks what I am doing is right and promotes me as a great hero; if one day they think it's wrong and say I am breaking the law, I will not adjust my behavior based on their evaluations. In most cases, if they don't allow me to operate, I simply won't operate in that country.

Money is also volatile. Today everyone is chasing it, flooding in, and prices soar; tomorrow everyone retreats, and prices plummet. If you care too much about these fluctuations, you won't be able to persist in doing things. Therefore, the influence of fame and money from the outside world cannot be the driving force behind your actions.

Host: So why do you "make money quickly"?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, I haven't deliberately tried to "make money quickly." My life has had many coincidences. Looking back, I graduated from Peking University and went to the University of Pennsylvania; at that time, I was very interested in business and happened to encounter two life-changing things: one was Elon Musk giving a speech; I was very interested in Tesla, and he talked about how electric cars are completely different from fuel cars, a complete technological breakthrough. But at that time, I didn't start a business in the automotive sector because I lacked a manufacturing background. The other was Bitcoin.

At that time, I was just a grassroots entrepreneur, starting my business right after graduating from college, and at the same time, others like Insta 360 and Bilibili were also successful. The premise of our success was that these tracks did not require heavy assets. Projects that required huge investments from the start were not suitable for recent graduates; at that time, a few friends, like Huang Xiuyuan, were labeled as frauds by the media.

I didn't deeply understand these logics at the time; I just stumbled into this industry and kept going.

Host: The CEOs of Insta 360 and Bilibili were not labeled as frauds by the media; why were you labeled as one?

Sun Yuchen: Because we were ahead of the curve. First, the premise of graduating and succeeding in entrepreneurship is that you cannot do something too traditional. Traditional projects will soon be entered by giants and eliminated through competition. Starting a car business requires heavy capital; the initial investment is in the billions, and if financing is successful, a prototype can be quickly made, while many people without funds cannot produce a prototype and will be labeled as frauds.

Bilibili's success relied on internet sensibility and community, especially ACG culture, which is the moat of video communities; without these, even traditional giants would not be able to succeed.

Host: So, do you think those who label you as a fraud do so because they don't understand you?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, but being ahead of the curve can be divided into two types:

One type is slightly ahead like Bilibili, where giants find it difficult to compete directly. You can't be completely ahead; otherwise, you won't succeed. If it's too traditional, once giants enter, it's over.

The other type is too far ahead, but this also has downsides: media and investors find it hard to understand, and you need to have the determination to persist because we also need early-stage financing. Many Chinese PE and VC firms do not invest in ahead-of-the-curve projects because they prefer mature, traditional business models. Only VCs like Sequoia and IDG would invest in early-stage ahead-of-the-curve projects like ours. Fortunately, we have IDG's support; they saw the foresight in our vision.

Host: You mentioned in your circle that if you feel you are not successful enough, it might be because you are not crazy enough. If you were to score yourself from 0 to 10, how crazy do you think you are?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, that statement was just me imitating Steve Jobs. At that time, Jobs said, “Only those who are crazy enough to change the world can actually change the world,” meaning that only those who are crazy enough to change the world can truly do so. I was just reiterating Jobs' concept. It means that if you are not crazy enough, you cannot change the world.

There is logic behind this concept: when you are doing something very ahead of its time, you need a certain level of determination and persistence.

Additionally, the Chinese translation of "crazy" is not entirely accurate. The English word "crazy" actually contains a sense of courage, a concept of doing the right thing regardless of others' opinions. The Chinese "疯狂" sounds more like being insane, which is completely different.

Host: So in your definition, what score would you give yourself?

Sun Yuchen: 9 points. As long as I have made up my mind, I will persist in doing it. Of course, I need to do it in a good way, but we will stick to this direction. I deduct 1 point for lack of experience, as I have made many mistakes in execution. Of course, we have also paid the price for these execution errors, but this is also part of growth.

Host: What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding from the outside world about you?

Sun Yuchen: I think the first is the internet's symbolization. Most people do not understand what I usually do; they have basically assigned me two labels: one is the "god of making money quickly" mentioned earlier, and the other is the "god of bug exploitation." Regarding bug exploitation, they even describe every step of my life as "exploiting bugs" to illustrate their theories, which makes me both amused and helpless; it is simply not the case, but they keep saying it.

Host: There is a particularly funny joke; I don't know if you've seen it: someone said you might not make money by helping an old lady cross the street, but Sun Yuchen rides the old lady across the street and can still make money.

Sun Yuchen: Yes, it means I am crazy enough to ride the old lady across the street, and it is not illegal because the law does not prohibit it. This is also a way of "exploiting bugs." People can interpret it however they want, but in reality, it has reinforced my image as a "concept god," much of which does not align with the facts, but I am too lazy to argue.

Host: For example, in several major crises between China and the U.S., you have been able to escape and stand up, gaining significant benefits; this is not due to exploiting bugs, right?

Sun Yuchen: No, absolutely not exploiting bugs. I maintain a normal and calm mindset. For instance, if something is not allowed in the Chinese market, we simply do not do it and instead focus on overseas markets, maintaining a global perspective. I have not tried to "exploit anyone's bugs," but the internet has labeled me as the "god of bug exploitation." Of course, from a communication perspective, this has also helped me be recognized by more people.

Host: So one of your strengths is being able to utilize all these things and extract what you consider valuable.

Sun Yuchen: Yes, so I cannot refute those who say I exploit bugs. They say Sun Yuchen makes us promote him exploiting bugs, which is itself a form of exploiting bugs.

Someone once humorously said: initially, someone said "Sun Cut," later someone said "Brother Sun didn't cut me; everything I bought made money," so someone explained, "The reason Sun Cut is called Sun Cut is that the cutting is very concealed—on the surface, it seems like you haven't been cut, but in some unnoticed places, you have already been cut."

In other words, I have become a concept god, able to "cut" you five years in advance, and you are completely unaware.

2. Contact with the Trump Group

Host: What is the most expensive thing you have ever bought in your life? Trump coins?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, I should have spent quite a bit on Trump coins. We bought about 100 million dollars' worth.

Host: Indeed, this money spent is worth it; can it be said to have kept you safe?

Sun Yuchen: Actually, we have never discussed the concept of "keeping safe," nor do we feel unsafe. The outside world has exaggerated it. We have always communicated very openly with the U.S. government and have never said it was to avoid anything. For example, when the SEC contacted us, our lawyers communicated seriously and never refused to engage. If the U.S. had not allowed us to operate, we simply would not have operated. On the other hand, I believe the president has also released goodwill, and we have a mutually supportive relationship.

Host: Can you talk about what role you played in the process of Trump issuing TRUMP coins?

Sun Yuchen: On the eve of the 2024 presidential election, the Trump team proactively contacted me, stating that if elected president, they would adopt a pro-cryptocurrency policy.

Host: What was their purpose in contacting you?

Sun Yuchen: They hoped I could provide policy consultation and guidance. At that time, they had just entered the cryptocurrency industry and were not quite sure how to proceed.

Host: With so many cryptocurrency companies and exchanges in the U.S., why would they consult you?

Sun Yuchen: I might indeed hold a certain key position in the cryptocurrency industry; in fact, they consulted many people, and I was just one of them. The Trump Group hoped I could provide guidance on cryptocurrency policy and offer cooperative support. Their main business had been in real estate, and they wanted to enter this new blue ocean industry of digital currency.

I was very excited at that time. Trump had clearly stated his friendliness towards cryptocurrency before the campaign and actively participated in Bitcoin conferences and related events, which made me feel very encouraged. I am personally very grateful for Trump's support of the cryptocurrency industry. Therefore, I fully support Trump-related cryptocurrency enterprises. I believe this is legitimate industry support without the negative factors that people might imagine.

Host: Some of our audience may not understand; let me explain. There is currently a narrative in the market that not only you but everyone attending cryptocurrency conferences is queuing up to give Trump money, which is direct and blatant bribery. As the largest holder of TRUMP coins, do you feel this is a bribe?

Sun Yuchen: First of all, I believe nothing is more important than being open. If this were bribery, no one would dare to be public about it. The most important thing is that this matter can withstand scrutiny. First, Trump's issuance of coins is public and has no cover-up. Second, this needs to be reported; for example, President Trump’s actions are reported every six months. Therefore, our investments in Trump-related enterprises, including my identity as the largest holder of TRUMP coins, are all public. Perhaps it is precisely because of this openness that it has attracted more media attention. However, I believe we are transparent and have not concealed anything. This aspect of being open and transparent is very important.

Secondly, regarding our attitude towards Trump's industrial policy, we are optimistic about the development of Trump's company itself. The U.S. political system allows for engaging in related business activities based on reporting and avoiding conflicts of interest. We cannot simply shut down Trump's golf courses just because he became president. Moreover, Trump's lenient policy towards cryptocurrency is industry-wide; it is not solely his decision but the result of collective decision-making by cryptocurrency legislators. The president will not act unilaterally.

3. Breaking Through Crises

Host: I have looked at your experiences, and I find you quite remarkable because you have gone through several major crises. Many people either do not escape from these crises or emerge from them battered and bruised, making it difficult to start anew. But you not only escaped but also gained significant benefits from these crises, which many people cannot achieve. Can you talk about your experiences after leaving mainland China in 2017, the crises you encountered each time, and how you escaped from them?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, this is a good thing. Recently, there has been a popular phrase "Brother Feng's desperate escape," meaning that no matter what difficult situation arises, Brother Feng sees it as a good thing.

Host: Do you think every crisis you faced was a good thing?

Sun Yuchen: Yes, if we think from this perspective, as I mentioned earlier, Chinese companies going overseas need to continuously undergo this transformation.

Host: Do you really think it was a good thing when you left mainland China in 2017? Briefly introduce the background; at that time, China issued the "September 4th Ban," which prohibited issuing coins and required everyone to return their money. And on the day before the ban was issued, you completed the issuance of coins and had already left mainland China. Can you help us reconstruct what happened at that time?

Sun Yuchen: There are a few angles I want to discuss. First, the external environment of the industry is very important, such as national industrial policies. Not only China but also the policies of different countries like the U.S. will affect the development of the industry. If the industrial policy is unfriendly, it will hinder many people from entering the industry. This has always been a problem that needs to be addressed.

That era was eight years ago. For many Chinese or Chinese-background enterprises, being barred from the Chinese market was a disaster, equivalent to not allowing the entire company to operate. Looking back today, it is not like that; it can be internationalized and done very well. However, many people have a self-limiting belief about Chinese companies, thinking that if they do not operate in the Chinese market, they cannot do well in the international market, lacking confidence and feeling they do not have that gene.

At that time, the cryptocurrency industry was still in its early stages, and there was no industry concept at all. We referred to the entire industry as "cryptocurrency." I personally believe this is part of the internet wave, somewhat like the mobile revolution, similar to the rise of WeChat and Alipay.

Secondly, and more importantly, the trend of technological development is not affected by the policies of individual countries. For example, the evolution from cold-blooded animals to warm-blooded animals: cold-blooded animals cannot compete with warm-blooded animals in natural survival; warm-blooded animals can adapt better to the environment and have stronger natural competitiveness. Warm-blooded animals will continue to evolve, and mammals are the same. The criteria for evolution are unrelated to policies; they depend solely on whether they are more conducive to survival.

What I see in the digital currency sector is a similar pattern. If Chinese companies do not fill the gap, American and European companies will immediately fill it. On one hand, the adjustment of Chinese policies has led many companies to exit; on the other hand, you also face very fierce competition from the outside. The entire industry is in a globally spontaneous competitive state; Italian and Swiss companies will also join the competition. If Chinese companies exit, others will fill the gap; this is spontaneous.

Host: I understand; you mean the cryptocurrency industry, like the internet, has no nationality. Can you explain to those who do not understand the cryptocurrency industry what actual value you saw in the cryptocurrency industry that enhances productivity?

Sun Yuchen: The value enhancement is significant. The essence of the internet is information transmission; it builds the infrastructure for information flow. The emergence of blockchain and cryptocurrency adds the functions of value transmission and currency transmission on top of the internet. I believe the impact of this revolution may surpass that of the internet revolution. Because the more valuable the content transmitted over the network, the greater the value of the network itself. In contrast, pure information transmission is far less impactful than the transmission of currency.

Host: Looking back, at that time, blockchain and cryptocurrency technology were still in their infancy, and there were not many applications as we see today. At that point in time, did you truly understand what clear value this technology could bring to ordinary people? For example, the value of the internet is very intuitive: we can order takeout, chat online, and these are obvious uses. But when blockchain technology was just starting, did you already foresee its potential, or were you exploring as you went along?

Sun Yuchen: I was not exploring at that time; I had already clearly recognized the potential of blockchain and repeatedly explained the concept of "value networks" to everyone. I believe the significance of value networks far exceeds that of the internet. The internet is essentially about information transmission; for example, ordering takeout is about transmitting the information "I want to eat" to the merchant, who then completes the transaction through logistics. This process is still part of the information network, evolving from the early PC internet to the mobile internet.

However, the value network brought by blockchain is completely different; it achieves direct transmission of money, which is a revolutionary breakthrough. In the traditional financial system, the transmission of money has two limitations: first, it cannot circulate efficiently through the internet; second, it is restricted by national borders, preventing true globalization. Blockchain has, for the first time, achieved cross-border, unobstructed transmission of money in an internet manner. The significance of this transformation, in my view, is more profound than the information transmission of the internet.

Of course, at that time, my thinking was more theoretical, and I had not fully foreseen specific application scenarios. Just like when Jobs invented the smartphone, he might not have accurately predicted the emergence of applications like takeout software or Uber. He simply created the phone and the App Store, opening the platform for developers to unleash their creativity, ultimately giving rise to innovations like takeout and ride-hailing. Blockchain is similar; I proposed the framework of value networks, and regarding specific applications, like industrial waves, it is up to the market and innovators to explore. Entrepreneurs, VCs, and private equity (PE) will replicate and create various applications based on this foundation in different countries, driving the development of the entire ecosystem.

Host: It seems that Jobs did not make money as quickly as you did. After you founded TRON in 2017, you went to South Korea to complete the coin issuance. Although you later withdrew some, it coincided with the Bitcoin bull market, and the price of TRON skyrocketed. You once claimed that your net worth reached 10 billion dollars, which Jobs might not have achieved so quickly. How was this wealth accumulated?

Sun Yuchen: First, I want to clarify some misunderstandings. We fully comply with national policies in China and conducted a comprehensive withdrawal. Regarding the so-called "how much money was made," there may be misunderstandings from the outside. Just like Jobs' situation, the market value of TRON and my personal wealth do not equate to actual cash that can be realized. We did not convert the market value into hundreds of billions in cash; the actual situation is not as imagined by the outside world.

Host: When TRON coins peaked, you did not cash out?

Sun Yuchen: No. Including the publicly listed companies under my name, we are all operating along a normal development path. The operational model of the blockchain industry is different from that of traditional internet companies. Traditional companies like Tencent or Alibaba realize "cashing out" by developing super apps, going public, and reducing their holdings. But the logic in the blockchain industry is completely different—we are building a self-sufficient financial infrastructure. All activities such as stablecoins, settlements, and trading are completed within our own ecosystem, so the concept of "cashing out" does not apply in our industry.

Host: Let's return to the main thread of your global travels. You first left China, went to Japan and South Korea, completed the coin issuance and withdrawal, and even did live streaming. Later, you went to San Francisco in the U.S., then to Singapore and Switzerland, but ultimately left those places. Why did you choose to return to Hong Kong?

Sun Yuchen: I returned to Hong Kong to respond to Hong Kong's digital currency policy. At that time, Hong Kong announced it would promote the development of digital currency, and I immediately responded to the call and returned to Hong Kong. I hope that through my actions, I can enhance industry confidence and make everyone feel that Hong Kong's policy environment is reliable. Previously, Hong Kong's policies were not clear enough, and my return, to some extent, boosted the confidence of more practitioners in Hong Kong.

Host: Some have commented that your greatest significance to the industry is acting as a "magnifier of industry volatility." How do you view this assessment?

Sun Yuchen: This assessment is somewhat like the "canary effect." In coal mines, miners put canaries in the mines before going down to test for toxic gases. If the canary is alive, the environment is safe; if it dies, it indicates danger. I play a somewhat similar role to the canary in this industry; my actions are often seen as signals of industry trends. I think this is an objective phenomenon.

Host: Are you willing to accept this "canary" assessment?

Sun Yuchen: The evaluation itself doesn't matter; I believe it truly reflects the objective situation. Many people will judge the trend of the industry based on my movements. For example, my attendance at Trump's dinner had a positive impact on the atmosphere of the U.S. cryptocurrency industry. Previously, the regulatory environment in the U.S. was quite strict, with the SEC suing multiple companies, including Binance, creating a climate of fear in the industry. Many cryptocurrency companies closed their U.S. headquarters and moved to countries like Portugal, where the time zone and policy environment are more favorable. But after I was "fine" in the U.S., everyone saw the signal and felt reassured to return.

Host: You were accused by the SEC (U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission) of insider trading, fraud, and issuing unregistered securities. They believe your tokens fall under the category of securities and may face legal risks similar to Zhao Changpeng, even imprisonment. What were you thinking when you saw these accusations?

Sun Yuchen: First of all, the notion of imprisonment is exaggerated because the SEC's accusations are civil lawsuits, not criminal ones. At that time, the SEC not only sued me but also sued Coinbase, essentially declaring war on the entire cryptocurrency industry. In my view, this was the last climax of SEC Chairman Gary Gensler before leaving office. However, many people could not see the long-term picture and mistakenly believed this represented a complete shift in the U.S. attitude towards the cryptocurrency industry.

Host: Is this how you comforted yourself at the time? Do you think this old man was just trying to make a final move, and that’s your way of comforting yourself?

Sun Yuchen: It's not comfort; it's a fact.

Host: But the situation looked very severe at the time, and you didn't know what would happen next. Weren't you really afraid?

Sun Yuchen: I believe the threat from the SEC was exaggerated by the outside world. Personally, I am not afraid; I just continue to work and live. Traditional industries like HSBC, Citibank, Microsoft, and Google have all gone through multiple antitrust investigations or government scrutiny. If a company cannot view such investigations as a normal phenomenon, it cannot grow into a large company. The SEC's accusations against us are unfounded because they are retroactively pursuing past actions without clear policy guidance. When the SEC sued us and Coinbase, there was no clear legal basis. They said we violated the law, but when we asked, "Which law did we violate?" they could not provide specific legal texts.

Host: The SEC believes your tokens are securities and violate the registration and regulatory requirements of securities law. What do you think?

Sun Yuchen: The SEC's accusations have no basis. The U.S. legal system is different from many other countries; it is not determined solely by administrative agencies. Securities law is established by Congress, and courts interpret it through case law, while the SEC is merely an enforcement agency without the power to interpret the law. They claim cryptocurrencies are securities, but no court or law explicitly supports this view.

Host: The securities law defines securities as "an investment of money in a common enterprise with profits to come solely from the efforts of others." Doesn't TRON's token fit this definition?

Sun Yuchen: It does not fit at all. This is the "Howey Test" of securities law, which defines it as "an investment of money in a common enterprise with profits entirely dependent on the efforts of others." At that time, there was no law explicitly categorizing cryptocurrencies as securities. Now that the Trump administration has come to power, the SEC's related accusations have basically been withdrawn, proving that these cases are purely an abuse of judicial interpretation. Although the SEC's actions may stem from departmental or personal interests, in the U.S., the courts and Congress are the final arbiters; the SEC cannot have the final say.

Host: You are very good at identifying key points and contradictions. You know that the classification of cryptocurrencies needs to be resolved by the courts and legislation, so you managed to engage the president who can influence court legislation.

Sun Yuchen: Not really. The president cannot directly intervene in the courts; his power is limited to the executive domain. Court rulings are based on facts, and facts are facts. Cryptocurrencies are fundamentally not securities, and no matter how much the SEC emphasizes this for departmental or personal interests, they cannot gain court recognition.

Host: Where do you think the difference lies between cryptocurrencies and the definition of securities law?

Sun Yuchen: Securities law was established in the 1930s, a time before World War II; how could it foresee the emergence of cryptocurrency technology that appeared after the release of the Bitcoin white paper in 2009? Trying to directly regulate modern technology with laws from 80 years ago is misguided. Even Trump said at the dinner that he is not a god and cannot predict the future of cryptocurrencies; looking five years ahead is already impressive. He believes we have great prospects because everyone in the room was in their 30s, still young, and the future of this industry is determined by us.

I personally believe that the SEC's attempt to forcibly apply securities law to cryptocurrencies reflects arrogance and ignorance. Gary Gensler, an MIT professor, has some understanding of the industry, but his forceful application of securities law to cryptocurrencies is a manifestation of technical ignorance and extreme arrogance.

Host: The SEC requires public account disclosures, anti-money laundering measures, and other regulatory requirements. Do you think these requirements are unreasonable?

Sun Yuchen: Regulation itself is reasonable, but it needs broad consultation and professionalism. The problem with the SEC is that they believe they understand the industry better than the practitioners and unilaterally impose regulations based on 1930s laws on modern technology, which is completely inappropriate. Industry practitioners do not oppose regulation, such as KYC (Know Your Customer) or anti-money laundering measures; these are common understandings. However, regulation must be based on professionalism and broad consultation, while the SEC often acts unilaterally and lacks persuasiveness.

Host: Some say this is another major crisis you faced after 1994. You say you are not panicking, but you have also taken many actions to avoid the consequences of imprisonment faced by your peers, such as serving as Grenada's ambassador and permanent representative to the WTO. What is the significance of this identity?

Sun Yuchen: Serving as Grenada's ambassador to the WTO and the United Nations is a meaningful attempt. Major countries like the U.S. do not easily provide such opportunities, but Grenada is willing to try. This is not only beneficial for Grenada but also allows me to promote the value of blockchain technology on the international stage in an official capacity. Through the platforms of the WTO and the United Nations, I can convey the voice of blockchain globally, not just limited to Grenada.

Host: Does this diplomatic identity not only amplify your voice but also help seek immunity from U.S. judicial accountability?

Sun Yuchen: Not entirely. The U.S. judicial system is based on court rulings, and diplomatic status cannot directly exempt one from accountability. The legal procedures in the U.S. are very clear, from district courts to circuit courts and then to the Supreme Court, with rulings based on facts. Cryptocurrencies are not securities; that is a fact, and no matter how much the SEC emphasizes it, it cannot change the court's ruling. My role as Grenada's ambassador is more about the challenges and opportunities, using international platforms to voice for the industry rather than simply avoiding judicial risks.

Host: You have been able to navigate freely between the "revolving door" during two very intense regulatory crises in China and the U.S. What experiences can you share with those who may face similar regulatory challenges?

Sun Yuchen: First of all, do not take regulation too seriously. Any company needs to communicate with regulatory agencies; this is a necessity for industry development. Many people are afraid of or resist communication, but I believe it is very important to maintain a calm mindset and communicate openly; this is the first point.

Secondly, you need to have your own determination and development direction. When regulatory agencies formulate industrial policies, they do not want to see companies and practitioners blindly following policy trends like headless flies. The country prefers to see teams that can be self-sufficient and do well without relying on government funding. For example, the recently popular DeepSeek did not raise a penny from the market and built an AI giant relying on its own funds; the government will naturally recognize such companies as they create value for the country.

Host: You seem to overlook one point: your experience also includes "looking at the Earth from the Moon," not limited to the policies of a single country. If one country's regulation tightens, you can shift to another country or region, seeking some identity as a refuge.

Sun Yuchen: There's no need to exaggerate. My thinking has always been to follow the development of the industry, and the industrial policies of various countries are dynamically changing. For example, if the U.S. prohibits certain businesses today, it may open up tomorrow, so we should try things out where they are allowed. If it is temporarily not allowed, we can take a step back and wait for the opportunity. I believe the order of doing things does not have to be too rigid; the key is to maintain an open mindset. Using current internet slang, it’s not about not doing it, but rather "doing it late, doing it slowly, doing it cleverly, doing it precisely, and doing it in detail." Whether to do it early, late, more, or less can be flexibly adjusted based on the actual situation.

4. The Value of Meme Coins

Host: Do you think meme coins have value? Some people can make a lot of money just by casually creating a meme; is that reasonable?

Sun Yuchen: Simplifying meme coins to "making money from memes" underestimates the significance of this industry. Not everyone can create a high-value meme coin from a meme. Why do some meme coins rise while others go to zero?

Host: Because some people are very famous, like Trump's son or wife; their fame makes people believe that buying meme coins will lead to more people buying them at a higher price.

Sun Yuchen: In my view, it is not entirely like that. The success of meme coins does not solely rely on celebrity effects but is a result of internet phenomena. With the rise of value networks (blockchain), the viral spread of the internet can be converted into monetary value, which is a phenomenon that did not exist before. For example, the PEPE coin, which originated from the American frog meme, is not only a meme but also carries certain political implications, widely spread on social platforms like Reddit, ultimately reaching a market value of tens of billions of dollars. This is an objective internet phenomenon that we can only recognize and understand. The key to the success of meme coins lies in the broad grassroots support and cultural phenomena.

Host: Can you summarize the value of meme coins in one sentence to help those who do not understand?

Sun Yuchen: The value of meme coins lies in converting internet attention into money, similar to Einstein's mass-energy equation—just as mass can be converted into tremendous energy, internet attention is transformed into economic value through meme coins. For instance, the annihilation of one gram of matter can release atomic bomb-level energy; meme coins also represent the conversion of attention into money.

Host: It sounds more like the effect and value of the celebrities themselves. So what is the value for those who buy meme coins?

Sun Yuchen: For those buying meme coins, the value lies in participating in the process of converting attention into economic benefits, potentially gaining huge returns at different stages. For example, Trump's meme coin (TRUMP coin) succeeded not only because of Trump's fame but also because he transitioned from a presidential identity to a unique internet IP and cultural meme. In contrast, if Biden were to issue a coin now, almost no one would buy it because he has not formed a similar internet cultural value.

Host: If Biden were to be re-elected and issued a coin, would you buy it?

Sun Yuchen: I would not buy it. Biden lacks the internet meme value and cultural influence that Trump has. Trump's IP is unique globally, while Biden has not made that transition from celebrity to internet cultural symbol.

Host: Do you think Biden's coin would be a losing business and would not rise?

Sun Yuchen: I wouldn't say it so definitively, but Biden's issuance of a coin lacks a foundation because he does not have the support of internet cultural value. Many people now think "everyone can issue coins," but there is a huge gap between issuing a coin and being recognized by the market. Only meme coins that stand out in the internet attention economy can become winners.

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